Hello, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of Your Website Engineer podcast. My name is Dustin Hartzler, and I have an extraordinary awesome interview for you today. But first, let’s go ahead and dive right into the announcements. First I want to let you know about the April Word Press webinar that I’ll be hosting. It will be on April 3 at 10:00 a.m. Eastern. You can register, of course, as always, over yourwebsiteenginner.com/webinar. And we are going to be talking about how we can add a password-protected membership site to our current websites. There are lots of different platforms that are out there.

There’s the – you can use Wish List Member, you can use something like a Restrict Content Pro. You can use e-Commerce, you know, different solutions, different things. I’m going to walk through – I’m going to take some time in the month of March and figure out which one is going to be the easiest and the most useful, the most cost-effective one to set up, and then we’re going to walk through how we take an existing website and how we turn that into we can add a membership piece to it.

Because you all know that membership sites are a great way to earn re-occurring revenue for a business. If you have 1,000 people that are paying you $5 a month, you know, as long as you’re providing extreme value to them, you can count on that $5,000 coming to you every single month. So I’m going to talk all about that in the webinar. Again that will be on April 3 at 10:00 a.m. Eastern, and you can sign up at yourwebsiteengineer.com/webinar. All right, another thing that I want to share with you today and coming in the Word Press news is actually Word Press beta – or it’s Word Press 4.2 Beta 1 is now out until awhile.

This is really cool because in April we’ll be getting 4.2, and so some of the stuff that you can start testing out to make sure your plug-ins, your themes, your sites are all running and working well on this new version of software. There’ll a link in the show notes for Episode No. 224 to get the download link and whatnot so you can see this. Basically in order to install a beta, you have to download the Word Press Beta Tester Plug-in, and then you have to set that up so that you’ll receive the Bleeding Edge nightlies, so you’ll get the latest version that’s out there.

And then a couple things that you can test while you’re playing around with this and making sure that things are working properly, there’s a – the Press This has been completely revamped. And basically what this is, it’s a bookmark lid – or I’m not exactly sure the terminology, but basically you can find a way that you can easily create drafts for your Word Press sites. So for example I was interested – I was on Tech [inaudible] [00:02:57] reading something, and I’m like, “Oh, this would be cool to blog about,” I could hit the Press This bookmark lid and it would auto add it as a draft into the website that I’ve set this up for.

So then the next time that I go in, I can say, “Oh, this was a draft that I’m going to talk about,” and then I could automatically go in and start publishing that content or working around that and using that. So that’s what the Press This is. It’s been completely revamped, so go ahead and check that out. The browsing and switching installed themes have been added to the customizer panel. And so you can switch faster between your themes and see the preview before you actually go live with them. So check that out. You can also look through and work through the workflow for updating and installing plug-ins. It’s gotten more intuitive and just makes it easier to install plug-ins and get those up and running.

So try those things out. And lastly, you can actually now use emoticons everyone, even in post-slugs. And so instead of saving like my-great-blog post, you know, you can actually put a thumbs up in that or whatever. I don’t know why you’d want to do that, but now you can do that in Word Press 4.2 in the Beta 1. There’s also some features that are in there for developers. So if you are on the developer level, go ahead and check those out and install the beta. I haven’t had a chance to do it yet because it just came out a few days ago. But go ahead and check that out. I know that I like to run my website and my plug-ins and a few things on the beta, just to make sure everything is working just perfectly fine.

All right, let’s transition over to the Is There a Plug-In for that Section, and today I just want to talk about a plug-in called NS Cloner. And this is a site cloning system for Word Press Multi Site. So I don’t talk about Multi Site a whole lot here, just because I don’t have a lot of experience with Multi Site, but this plug-in gives you the ability to clone an entire Multi Site installation. You’ve know that Backup Buddies and the Vault Presses and stuff like that doesn’t really do a great job of cloning a Multi-Site.

So maybe you have a Multi-Site for some sort of coursework or whatever it is, you want to easily duplicate that content and move it to another place or whatever, this is a perfect plug-in for that. It’s called NS Cloner and you can find it over at nettlesneversettle.it. And this is actually the folks that I’ll be talking to today, so I thought it would be great to just go ahead and plug one of their plug-ins as well as part of the show. I’m so excited to bring you this interview today, is with a guy named Ken Kelly. And he is a author or a coauthor of this book. Him and his team of seven from neversettle.it put together this e-book on how they launched 12 products in 12 weeks.

Some of those products were Word Press plug-ins, some of them were other things. We’ll talk all about this in the interview. I had a blast with this interview, and I learned so much, and I think you will too. So sit back and relax and listen to Ken and I’s prerecorded interview.

Dustin Hartzler: All right, today we are – I’m so excited to have Ken Kelly on the phone with me via Skype. And we are going to be talking about some of the things that they learned by launching a bunch of products in a little bit of time. They have some Word Press premium plug-ins, Word Press free plug-ins, all kinds of stuff we’re going to dive into today. And I’m really excited because I think this conversation will help us to think through what it takes to either run a plug-in type company or just some of the things that we need to think through when we are trying to launch a product, whether it be a Word Press website really quickly or anything that we’re doing online.

Some of the things that we need to think about and some of the things that they might not have thought about, and it was a lesson learned later. And so I wanted to get Ken on the phone today and just talk through some stuff. We’re going to be talking through one of the e-books that his company has, their team has. So we’re going to dive right in. And Ken, welcome to the show.

Ken Kelly: Yeah, thanks for having us. We’re really pumped to be on the show. And yeah, I think the heart behind this was really, we found ourselves in a position that I think many of your listeners will find themselves as well, in wanting to be a products-based company, but not having enough product-based income to keep us afloat. And so we’re looking to make that transition of how do we move from services to a products-based company? And then the idea of that, we kind of had this crazy experiment, where we said, “Hey, what if we could build and launch 12 products in 12 weeks?”

And this kind of came out of just a culture that we fostered really well. We’re really about taking new experiments and ideas and pushing the limits on things and challenging the status quo. One of our core tag lines is existing outside the box. How can we live outside the normal parameters of business as usual? And with that, we took – we had quite a few experiments come through. One of our first ones was something we called 40 hours a week, no more, no less. And that was where we went, and we challenged the idea to run a startup, you have to work crazy hours.

And everyone on the team – myself, this is my third company – we’d all come from a background where more hours was better and it was just kind of a way of life. And we really challenged that norm when we started Never Settle. And so our first year we came up with this idea of 40 hours, no more, no less. I’ll just summarize it real quickly. We did this experiment where we just said no one can work more than 40 hours. And we wanted to incentivize people to not do that. Both people that maybe have a hard time hitting 40, and then the crazy workaholics that easily blow through those 40 hours.

So we tried to come up with this metric that would incentivize everyone on the team to hit their 40. And we found that vacation time was the best way to do that. So if you went over 40 hours, your vacation time would be docked by the amount of time that you went over, and if you went under 40 hours, the same amount of vacation time would be docked. And we did that as an experiment, and it was probably one of the most valuable things we’ve ever done as a company, where it caused the entire team to have hyper focus on productivity as well as on priorities, knowing they only had 40 hours a week to get things accomplished.

And so that started fostering a culture of experiments. And three years later we have this experiment where we said, “Hey, what if we can launch 12 products in 12 weeks?” And that’s really where the e-book kind of was formed out of.

Dustin Hartzler: Wow. That is so interesting. And I have probably a dozen questions just off of that little bit. But first, how big is the team?

Ken Kelly: Our team is seven people.

Dustin Hartzler: Okay, and local –

Ken Kelly: It’s pretty small.

Dustin Hartzler: – are you all geographically located together? Or is kind of a distributed company across the U.S. or the world?

Ken Kelly: Yeah, very remote. And that was – the book was actually really written – it was originally going to be about working remote, and we realized there’s a lot more in here, and so we shifted it, and we would like to publish that later. But we are very diverse. At one time, we had people in three countries, and it was all three partners in three different countries. So myself was in Costa Rica. Another partner was here in the States, and the other one was in Canada. And so right now, half of our team is in Colorado, but the rest of them are spread out in a couple different states and Canada.

Dustin Hartzler: Got you. Okay. And I think a lot of Word Press entrepreneurs are kind of – I think we’re going to be really interested in what you guys have found out and what you’ve learned from launching these things so fast. I remember a few years ago when I was a Word Press developer, I wanted to get into either some sort of product or some sort of teaching or whatever it was. Like I wanted to have like that product instead of always having clients all the time. But I found it very torn. Like you had to get the clients to pay for your salary or your income for the month, but then you didn’t have enough time to work on the products.

And so I think it’s a really interesting challenge that you said, “Okay, for three months, we’re going to focus on building these 12 things.” Just I’m really excited to hear about what you learned and what came from that journey. So what – can you just kind of highlight what were the 12 products?

Ken Kelly: So in those 12 weeks, we launched four premium Word Press plug-ins. We launched four free Word Press plug-ins, one free LEAN Startup experiment tool – and that’s really helped us conduct this and created the framework to manage ourselves and hold ourselves accountable to the things that we were trying to build. And I’d say a lot of what this was about came from Eric Reis and LEAN Startup, where we took all the LEAN principles and really put them into practice. And in that, we really found the need for a tool to help drive what we were doing.

We did a Word Press daily deal website, one IOS mobile app, a royalty-free music and audio pack, and then the e-book that we’re talking about today.

Dustin Hartzler: Wow. Awesome. That sounds like a lot of work for seven people. Or maybe the team wasn’t even quite seven at that time. But how did you kind of break down the work? Was it like, okay, we’re going to hyper focus on this one thing, and then we’ll move on to the next project? Or do you have a couple people working on a couple different things? How was that work distributed?

Ken Kelly: Yeah, each week it changed quite a bit because, as you were talking about, we still had to keep up with the normal demands of being a services-based company where the majority of our income was coming from. But each week, we would have a lead that was managing the product, and sometimes we would – when we were fortunate, we’d get a little bit of lead time on that where we could start planning ahead and maybe developing a week or two before. But part of it was just the innovation life cycle of deciding, hey, what do we want to build next week or Week 5 or Week 6?

We didn’t go into this with 12 specific product ideas. And even some of the product ideas we did have, because of market factors and because of things that we were – we were kind of challenging our assumptions the whole way – certain products we thought we were going to build, we didn’t. And then one we would have never thought of, we ended up doing that. And so one of the principles really is how to innovate today, while planning for the future. And there’s a really fine line, without overplanning, but just making sure that when you’re creating small goals ahead of yourself, that you’re at least just touching bases of what your end goal is and making sure they align to those.

And we definitely don’t want to get in the trenches on that stuff and overthink it. But it is important that you’re always taking your small goals and just making sure they’re aligning towards the last one.

Dustin Hartzler: That’s so interesting that you didn’t – you set out to build 12 things in 12 weeks, but didn’t have kind of a road map. Like these are the 12 things that we really want to create. And I think that’s kind of a good way too to approach it because you can see those things that come up as – you know, maybe you were working on a Word Press plug-in, and then you were like, “Wow, we could really add this feature and make it a premium plug-in,” and kind of continue to evolve and create what you needed to as the needs – or as you saw fit, for sure.

Ken Kelly: Mm-hm. I’d say most entrepreneurs have no shortage of ideas. So this experiment was really about how do we focus those ideas into what are going to be the correct products we want to build? And so part of that was asking better questions along the way. But yeah, we definitely did not – the whole team had a bunch of ideas of, hey, each week we’d go into our product-planning meeting, and what are we going to build? And there would be a super diverse list because you have a bunch of innovators in a room together; they’re going to start thinking and everything.

But figuring out what to build was really part of just asking better questions to create better products.

Dustin Hartzler: Got you. Okay, so you didn’t really start out with this game plan, and you kind of innovated as you went. So what was the first thing that you started with? Was it a Word Press plug-in? Was it one of the other tools?

Ken Kelly: The first thing we started out with was a Word Press plug-in. It was a premium Word-Press plug-in, and it was really, it was the epitome of everything we kind of learned. Even though it was in the first week, we put everything we had learned previously that we documented in this book into practice with that one, and it’s called the NSFBA for Woocommerce. And it’s an API that automates all fulfilment for a Woocommerce story through Amazon’s fulfilment. And Amazon is your world’s largest fulfiller, and Woocommerce is one of the world’s largest e-commerce carts.

But there was no solution that connected the two. So now retailers can sell their products online and have it completely fulfilled through Amazon and be totally hands-off, which is really neat. And for us, this touches on one of the big things we came away with, and that was called the demand intersection. And that’s really where we saw two bird meeting one stone. And the demand intersection is where you have a current demand internally for your business, but you also see market demand for something. And there’s a lot of really powerful things that come into place when that happens and when you find those very specific demand intersections.

Because 1) you’re intimately involved with the need. You understand it and you spent a lot of time and thought leadership thinking about – so if someone had this solution, we’d be willing to pay a certain amount for it. So within that, this really came from we own another company called Osana Bar, and it’s a retail product. It’s a natural mosquito repellent, and it’s a cause-based company, and basically, Westerners buy this soap and we ship 20 percent of our inventory to countries suffering from malaria.

But we had this problem where we were selling our soap in Amazon, but we’re also selling it in our Woocommerce cart, and managing two fulfilment channels and sending notifications back and forth and just all the things that are tied into that was really time-consuming. And so we had this current need ourselves, but we also found, by looking for a solution to that, we found the market didn’t have a solution. And it was right up our alley, where we’re a very strong background in Word Press. We’re intimately – we have an intimate knowledge of e-commerce and fulfilment, and also Amazon for our client work and then our personal need.

And so we said, “Hey, let’s build a product that’s going to solve both.” And that turned out to be, looking back, one of our most valuable and most profitable products to date.

Dustin Hartzler: Sure, sure. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think sometimes we do that. As Word Press developers, we’re like, “Oh, this really fits my need,” and you build it, and then you realize, hey, there’s a lot of other people that can use it, and that’s how you can create a premium product just like that. My question is, when you did this – and obviously this was not a small project whatsoever – you know, if you’re trying to connect with the Amazon APIs and talking back and forth and doing everything, was this done in a week? Or how did that timeline of work kind of shape out?

Ken Kelly: That was done in a week, and it was Week 1. So that was a really great opportunity to really put this into place. One of our principles we pulled out this is the value of unrealistic deadlines. And so that would be one of those times where the deadline was very unrealistic. And what we found is when you have that, a hardcore deadline, you’re focused on what’s actually needed to launch, really narrows in. And so an analogy we found was as soon as we realized that the goal was to get a boat from Point A to Point B, it allowed us to quickly eliminate the decks and the extra rooms and all those things off the ship, when it was really about what is the end objective here?

And that’s where the LEAN startup tool came into place, too, is it helped us to hone in and focus on what are our big leap of faith assumptions? What are the things that we’re measuring? And how do we define success? And when you have those metrics in front of you, it allows you to make really great decisions. So for the FBA tool, we launched it as a minimum viable product that just did the entire API and automated fulfilment, but it didn’t have a bunch of levers and buttons. It didn’t have a bunch of – you know, the styling wasn’t awesome.

And there was a lot of things that we still wanted to do, but the idea was we wanted to automate fulfilment. And so we came up with that minimum viable product, getting it out to the market, seeing how well it’s done. We got feedback immediately, and since then, we’ve been able to add quite a few releases to it with new features based on what was actually a priority to the customer, not based on what we thought was a priority.

Dustin Hartzler: Sure, sure. I think that’s a great lesson as well. Like all the time we build stuff and we’re like, “Oh, well this is what I want, and this is perfect for everyone.” But it’s not everyone’s needs. You can survey people, but to try to get – okay, these are the features we want to add. Is it worth our time? But I think if you get the minimal viable product out there and share it with people, then they’re going to tell you, you know, if sell 100 copies and 95 people are telling you you need to add X, it’s probably a pretty good indication that X should be added in the next version or the next revision of the plug-in or code or theme or whatever you’re creating.

Ken Kelly: Mm-hm. Yeah, I think that’s just so critical and it’s hard to do because, as entrepreneurs, we just, we like to run with things. But two things I see that, to make that really successful. The first one is you need a mechanism to gather feedback. So it’s great to say you want feedback, but if you’re not intentional about how you’re going to get it from get-go, you’re just not going to get it. So you want to really think about that as you’re getting ready to launch a product. And the second one is you want to have a framework for holding yourself accountable really.

And that’s where we got that LEAN startup experiment tool, where we define what the experiment is. And through that, we’re defining who our customer is, what their problem is, what the solution is that we’re going to build, and then really critical here, what are our assumptions? What are we assuming about this that we can document? And then we look back on that, and we’re going to have accountability to – you know, we believe that if we build X, Y and Z, customers will download the product because of these other reasons.

And in that, you define your test and then the success criteria and your timeframe. And all those elements are really, really important because you’re finding the critical metric to define success, and then you’re giving yourself a limited timeframe. And that will really help you refine these experiments and get just invaluable customer feedback and invaluable self-reflection on what you’re doing. But without a – so the two things would be, without a mechanism to gather feedback and without a framework to conduct a test, it’s going to be really easy to go off the deep end and building the wrong future set.

Dustin Hartzler: Mm-hm. And how did you guys collect feedback from your users? Was it something built into the plug-in that they could send? Or once they got on some sort of email responder to fill out a form? How did that look?

Ken Kelly: Yeah, I would say it’s different for each product. And so that was one of the things to think about. I would say just for all Word Press developers, never to have a hardcore framework. We like to think of this as a methodology and principles learned of how you can adapt them to your business or your product. And we found that very true with every product that we developed. And so most of our Word Press plug-ins, the mechanism is built in with the Word Press repository and feedback and questions and bugs reported and all that.

And we’re always monitoring all the forms and making sure we’re gathering that. And then we have a tool that centralizes all that data. We can prioritize it. We use User Voice for that, so users can come in and they can vote up or down features that they want. And we’re pulling features in from the forms. And things like the e-book, we put it right in the book. We say, “Hey, we give money-back guarantees on everything we do,” and we just ask, you know, “We’d love to give your money back if you don’t think this was valuable. But we’d also love to know why you don’t.” Or things like that.

So we try to get creative on how can we foster communication with the client? But I would say that it’s very unique for a product.

Dustin Hartzler: Got you. That’s really cool. Was there any things that – or I guess maybe what was the biggest challenge – let’s continue with just this Amazon fulfilment plug-in as the example. It was Week 1. What were some of the challenges or things that you had to overcome to get this product shipped out the door by Friday of that first week?

Ken Kelly: I think scope creep; just fighting that scope creep is probably the hardest thing to do. Scope creep is a lot like opening a bag of chips. Once you take the first bite, you’ll keep coming back for more. And I’d say more so with entrepreneurs. It’s a really big deal. Like you have this perfect product in your mind, and you’re going to solve the world’s problems with it. And so for you to put yourself out there in the market with this product that’s inferior to something that you can build better, that you know is better and you know the problems with it already, there’s probably a bit of ego in there.

But it’s really, really difficult to maintain your own scope when you’re capable of so much more.

Dustin Hartzler: Yeah. I think that’s a problem with every project. It’s like – and I think you guys did a great job by defining some of those things right out of the gate. I think that’s probably a good thing for all of us to do if we’re building a plug-in or a theme or working on a project. Like here is what I need to do. And then stick to those things. Now I recently launched a new website of my own for my own – for yourwebsiteengineer.com. And there was all the time stuff. I’m like, “Oh, I need to do this. And oh, I need to do this. And oh, I need to do that.” And honestly, I didn’t get them all done by the time I launched.

But because of the fact that I had this target goal date of finishing, and I knew what the minimum was – and I didn’t necessarily write it down – but kind of in my head, I knew that, oh, well, if I don’t get to this feature, it’s not the end of the world. I can still launch. And things like that. And I think writing those down, as you get started, I think that would be extremely helpful and be like, okay, I’ve got all of the minimal things – yeah, the things that I think are the bare minimum done. Let’s move on and let’s ship it, and then Version 1.whatever, you know, can fix and address some of those other enhancements that I’d really like to do.

Plus any other feedback that I get from the community or whatnot.

Ken Kelly: Yeah, I can stand behind that more. Prioritization and focus is critical. We actually just launched a new version of our website last night around midnight. So at neversettle.it, it’s something we’ve been working on for a while, and we actually – we document everything that we have, but we label things as critical for launch. And then we tag those and so we know, before we launch – and this was with every project – we know what do we have to have to launch? And then we don’t just ignore all the great ideas that the team’s putting forth. We document those and we prioritize them.

Dustin Hartzler: Got you. And how do you prioritize that? Is that just like some sort of Excel document? Or do you have a tool to do that?

Ken Kelly: We use our project management tool with tags. And so we’ll do like Priority 1 through 5, and then allow the team to knock those down as we get to them. And then obviously priorities shift on certain things.

Dustin Hartzler: Sure.

Ken Kelly: As sometimes we think something is critical, and then you launch and you’re like, “That’s actually not going to matter.” Which is part of that user feedback. And so that gets bumped way down or deleted. And then something that wasn’t even on your radar all of a sudden becomes an urgent request.

Dustin Hartzler: Sure. Sure. Awesome. So is there anything else that you think that our listeners should – to understand or learn about trying to launch a product, in any timetable? You don’t have to launch something in a week. It depends on if it’s a person of one, you’re not going to launch the newest big plug-in in just a week. It’s going to take some time. But any other learnings that you learned from this experiment that you could pass on and it would be helpful to our listeners?

Ken Kelly: Yeah. I think there’s a few things that stand out. But one of them would be power of small batches. And so Eric Reis talks about this a lot, and it actually didn’t come from him. It came from some [inaudible] [00:26:40] manufacturing overseas where they were doing these small batches. And it was really challenging our assumptions about the assembly line. And so to illustrate the point – and a lot of people have done this, and you can just search on YouTube, envelope stuffing, just to see it in practice.

But if you were to hand me a stack of 100 envelopes and you wanted me to open the envelope, fold a piece of paper three ways, stuff the envelope, seal the envelop, stamp it and address it, and you said, “All right, we’re going to have a race.” Most people would do – they would open all 100 envelopes first, and then they would fold all 100 pieces of paper first, and then they would stuff all 100 envelopes. Then they would seal all 100, then they would stamp all 100, and then they would address all 100. And that’s really what we’ve been programmed to think in the assembly line.

And what small batches does is it breaks that concept. 1) You’ll actually go a lot faster if you do something A to Z. But that’s not really the value. The learnings involved is what the value of it is. So they’ve timed it, and if you don’t believe me, go do the experiment yourself and time – just even ten envelopes, and you’ll see. But the savings is about 20 to 30 percent like a time saving. And part of that’s the power of focus when you’re doing one thing start to finish without being distracted. So the 20, 30 percent time saving alone is huge. But what’s really, really important is what if our envelopes don’t seal?

And so we spend 50 percent of our time to find out this error that the glue on the envelopes that we have is actually bad, so we need a new set of envelopes. Whereas if we were doing small batches, the first time that we stuffed one envelope, we would find that out right away, and then we could adapt and not throw away all that time and work. So small batches, we really go into it elaborately in the book, but that’s a high level view of it. And I think that’s really, really critical for developers to learn from the auto industry manufacturers.

And Toyota started doing this, and it’s increased their profitability quite a bit.

Dustin Hartzler: Hmm. That’s interesting. I think I’ve heard that before, and I’ve never followed it. I actually worked in a factor as an engineer for a few years, and so I’m very used to the assembly line manufacturing. And I think that I need to do our Christmas cards a little different next year because I did them one step at a time. Like I stuffed them all. I did them in small batches, but I tried to – anyways, I did it the wrong way, and I could definitely save some time in doing that and getting those ready.

Ken Kelly: Yeah. I find myself doing it all the time, and it cracks me up because I know it. It’s just I need to follow it. But a practical example for a developer would be let’s say you’re modifying content on a client’s page, on a client site. One thing I found is if your bandwidth’s not really screaming the way you want it to, I’ll open ten tabs and I’ll be working on ten pages at the same time, and I’ll be publishing those changes. And usually maybe it’s a set of products that we’re launching in their cart or something, where the content that you’re adding is the same between all ten pages, or very similar.

And I’ll find that when I’m doing that, I’ll get through all of them, and be like, “Oh man, I forgot to put that extra CTA on the product page.” And so I’ll open all ten tabs again and I’ll start publishing those changes and refreshing, publishing and working across multiple tabs at a time because it’s taking too long for it to publish. And then I’ll find myself, “Oh man, I also forgot to do this thing.” And then I’ll just sit there looking at my computer and see myself in the mirror and just be like, wow, I wasted a lot of time.

Dustin Hartzler: Sure, sure. Yeah. That’s another great take-away from this interview. Well, we’re kind of running out of time here. But I’m sure that we can continue to follow your journey and continue to follow what neversettle is doing. And so where could people kind of follow or hang out or communicate with you?

Ken Kelly: Yeah, neversettle.it is the best place to connect with us. All of our free Word Press plug-ins are there, the free LEAN startup experiment tool, our premium plug-ins, and then a lot of free content around the lessons that we’re learning. We publish all those in our blog and then the e-book is there as well. And then #neversettleit on social media.

Dustin Hartzler: Awesome. Awesome. Well, I will link all of this stuff up in the show notes. And Ken has been very gracious, and we are going to give away some of these books. So if you’re interested, stay tuned after the interview when I record the outro, you’ll be able to hear exactly how to do that and how to sign up to win a free book. And Ken, just thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. And I look forward to talking to you soon.

Ken Kelly: Yeah, absolutely, Dustin. We really appreciate it.

Dustin Hartzler: All right. That is going to wrap up this episode. If you are interested in getting one of the free e-books that we’re giving away, head on over to the show nodes for Episode No. 224. You can find it easily at yourwebsiteengineer.com/224, and there’ll be information there on how you can sign up and register for your free copy. And I hope that you found value in this. I found value in this, even though I’m not trying to build a business building Word Press plug-ins. So that’s all I’ve got for you this week. Take care. We’ll talk to you again soon. Bye-bye.